[Trans India]

Published date: Sep 1977

“WE WERE ALL COWARDS!”

When Anand Mohan and Chaitanya Kalbag called on Mrs. Ambika Soni in Delhi on August 17, they expected her to come forth with the defensiveness and the self-righteous-ness most of her colleagues in the Congress Party display. Mrs. Soni, after all, had occupied a powerful and coveted position during the Emergency-as President of the Youth Congress, she had enjoyed the confidence of both Sanjay Gandhi and Mrs. Indira Gandhi. What followed, instead, was a searing self-examination. Mrs. Soni describes, in the interview below, the process that led to the erosion of democratic processes within the Congress Party and the Youth Congress, and details the “fear” and the “isolation” that existed in the highest echelons of the organization. “I have done a lot of thinking in the last two months,” Mrs. Soni told Transindia and proceeded to speak, with an honesty that often bordered on the brutal.

‘I WAS TOTALLY INSPIRED BY MRS. GANDHI. I BELIEVED IN HER. HONESTLY.’

Transindia: Mrs. Soni, the Youth Congress has been accused of collecting vast sums of money by applying pressure and coercion during the Emergency. Would you comment OR that?

Ambika Soni: I cannot deny the fact that while I was the President of the Youth Congress a lot of complaints did come in from many people that Youth Congress workers were either pressurizing or throwing their weight around in collecting money. I was not unaware of this. On many occasions I even issued

|| ‘We were the youth wing of the Congress; we were never independent’ ||

press statements that people should not give money to Youth Congress workers. They were printed as minutely as possible! One man in Bombay was booking luxury suites in hotels and posing as the General Secretary of the Y .C. He was fieecing the film industry. I had him handed over to the police. Similarly, I put a stop to the collection of advertisements in Delhi in my name. But how far could one check such misuse~ Today. when one hears of crores of rupees being swindled. I wonder whether people aren’t finding the youth Congress a convenient scapegoat! When I. resigned, there were over Rs. 7 lakhs in the bank; when I became President. there wasn’t a dime! But this rash of accusations in one way may be good for us. In a way, I’m glad that national life is going to be cleansed …

Transindia: Was it true that the Youth Congress had over 5 million members by the time the Gauhati Session in December 1976 came around?

Ambika Soni: We didn’t have 5. million members; we had only printed around 5.2 million membership forms here in Delhi and distributed them to State Committees.

Transindia: The youth Congress followed a confusing ideology; there were strong leftist elements in it, and strong rightist ‘elements in it. Why was there such confusion?

Ambika Soni: When we enrolled huge numbers of people like we did during the Emergency, there was a lot of infiltration by disparate elements. We were the youth wing of the Congress Party; we were never independent. It is only because we were given so much importance during the Emergency that people began to think of us as an independent body. I made this speech in Gauhati in which I said we were not separate but part of the Congress, and that speech was censored!

The Congress has always been a left of-the-center party; but whenever we have tried to implement land reforms or other radical measures, there have been vested interests within the party which have resisted the implementation of such radical steps. We do have a vague ideology. And when Sanjay came on the scene. with his statements that he did not

||’Sanjay’s statements diluted whatever little ideological convictions we might have had’ ||

believe in either Left or Right, that he did not believe ‘ in any “isms”. this further diluted whatever little ideological convictions we might have had. Naturally we attracted all shades of opinion; and when there was a crisis, we were left gaping. Sanjay knew that I differed with him on this ideological business. I was a little bit of a joke for him- “Ambika Soni. the leftist and the socialist in the Youth Congress” he would say. He had a little dig at me now and then on this count. I had always felt ‘ that we ought to train our young people. because I said the danger would come when the. Emergency was removed.

TransinIia: At what point did things start going out of hand, then?

Ambika Soni: It’s difficult to say …

Transindia: How powerful were you as the President of the Youth Congress?

Ambika Soni: The first six or seven months of my presidentship were all right, there was no interference. Of course. Sanjay did come up with many suggestions which I am sure were put to him by various politicians. because he didn’t know

|| ‘Sanjay knew that I differed with him on this ideological business’||

enough to know of those things himself. But after those first months. there wasn’t so much freedom. After some time. one couldn’t take decisions on one’s own. I wasn’t even able to get somebody of my choice elected as president of the Delhi Committee. although Delhi was supposed to be my political base!

Transindia: So, there was disillusionment from that stage?

Ambika Soni: There was definitely disillusionment among many of us. But to say that today seems easy. We should have spoken out then. If all of us had spoken out collectively and strongly. maybe things would have been remedied.

Transindia: But why didn’t this happen? Why didn’t you protest?

Ambika Soni: Because basically all of us lacked the guts to do it.

Transindia: So, all this damage was done because of Sanjay Gandhi’s interference?

Ambika Soni: Gradually when everybody began meeting Sanjay, naturally he must have thought he had a wilder access to different points of view. When Sanjay came in. everyone who had been opposing the leftists within the Youth Congress saw their chance. and grabbed it. I never wanted the Youth Congress to reverse completely everything that had happened in the past.

Transindia: But it doesn’t. seem logical to assume that Sanjay was, non-ideological, does it?

Ambika Soni: In his first press interview, he was all in favor of the private sector and against nationalization-definitely

||’There was definitely ‘ disillusionment among many of us’ ||

rightist in viewpoint. In fact. that introduced Sanjay as the rightist element in the Youth Congress. And we often wondered how Mrs. Gandhi. who was known for her leftist and socialist policies. would cope with this. But she seemed to have been converted by Sanjay. because in December during the Gauhati session she spoke out strongly against the Communists.

Transindia: But weren’t many people saying that Sanjay would make a good leader?

Ambika Soni: I personally felt that Sanjay was not totally a political person. I felt it then, and I often used to have arguments with him, and I told him that his anti-socialist stance was not going to pay him, because in a country like ours, I am personally convinced that only progressive ideas can take us forward.

Transindia: If you had differences with Sanjay, how then did you COVER STORIES manage to remain in your position?

Ambika Soni: There were no apparent differences wits Sanjay. I knew that Sanjay was not right in his totally anti-Left stance. I knew that Sanjay, to become a leader in this country, would have to change his stance. I told him this! There was a question of a person who had acquired a lot of defame. and people used to come to me and say “Aap rokiye, bahut athyachar ho raha hai Nasbandi mein” – I went and told Sanjay that this person was certainly not helping the Family Planning program. And he said “No, no, he’s doing very good work, I don’t mind what is happening.” And then I told Sanjay about another man who was making a lot of hay, telling people he had Sanjay in his hold. And Sanjay said “Well I do blindly what he tells me to!” And I

||’Basically, all of us lacked the guts to protest’||

said this was no way to become a national leader. I said he would have to look at everything on its merits, and that he could not give a blank check to anyone.

Transindia: Our other New York. paper, News & Cine India, had interviewed Sanjay some time back, and he appeared quite the good little boy who was being wrongly accused …

Ambika Soni: Where he said: “I’ll become a hero if I’m arrested” and all that?

Transindia: Yes.

Ambika Soni: They were all ‘nonpolitical statements! They were unnecessary statements! Sanjay was certainly very fixed in his ideas. Once he got an idea into his head, he thought he knew best! He was

||’Till we recognize that we were all cowards, I don’t think we’ll go forward’||

very reluctant to ever change! He was very fixed in his ideas, either because of what people told him, or because he just believed in them. I also feel that Sanjay was used. He became easily accessible, an easy way to please Mrs. Gandhi, so everybody just went to Sanjay! Once I asked him: “Do you believe what all these Chief Ministers come and tell you. that you are the only leader and all that?” And he said “Of course not.” And I said “I’m glad you don’t. because you know. they don’t mean it!” I talked to him as a friend. Once or twice I even told him. “Don’t you ever treat me like a political worker. because I’m not here working for you!”

Transindia: Obviously Sanjay permitted himself to believe what the Chief Ministers were telling him. Ambika Soni: Is it abnormal? I want to ask you this. Is it abnormal? There’s this young chap. of say 28 or 29. who started off. when he came into political limelight when the Emergency was declared. not knowing he would go that high. that far. Is it abnormal to succumb if everybody from top to bottom says “You are our leader”? I am not saying this from a political point of view. but from a human point of view. Even Mrs. Gandhi fell ‘ a victim to sycophancy! A person so shrewd. so far-sighted. so capable of taking correct decisions in the past. with such achievements to her credit. she also fell victim to sycophancy! She began believing in certain things. Is it surprising then that Sanjay also fell victim to sycophancy? People used to rush to touch his feet. you know! When we got down from a plane. Sanjay would start

||’I think Mrs. Gandhi is trying to make a comeback in sheer undignified haste!’||

walking very fast across the tarmac. and Chief Ministers would run to welcome him! I refused to run. I stayed behind. Nobody bothered that ‘the President of the Youth Congress was tagging along behind ‘ Sanjay! Somebody even called me a “good rubber stamp”! 1 wonder if I wasn’t in a way. frankly speaking! It was disgraceful. I feel upset and humiliated now. when I think back. It was a tremendous effort to try and maintain some dignity of the Presidentship of the Youth Congress. If Chief Ministers wanted to discuss the Youth Congress. they. would go to Sanjay! H they couldn’t get Sanjay. then they came to me! Everybody became ‘So weak! Today: Sanjay is bound to feel let down. to wonder where all-those people are who said he was a future Prime Minister. And because of Sanjay. block youth Congress. workers in small towns began getting recognition. too. Suddenly young men who had never tasted leadership and political patronage before became leaders So almost everybody lost their sense of proportion!

Transindia: And the Gauhati session climaxed this loss of proportion?

Ambika Soni: I had never imagined that the Gauhati session would be ‘such an elaborate affair! Naturally. all that limelight was heady. and many people lapped it up. I made a speech in which I criticized the Congress President for not taking in younger people on decision-making. which he had promised. and people said “Why do you criticize the older Congressmen?” I want you to tell me. which youth movement can try

||’Sanjay was certainly very fixed in his ideas!’||

and help youth to go forward if it doesn’t sound a little bit militant? Unless you say that old people are blocks on the road and all that? Unless you do that you can’t inspire young people to go forward! I was not the first Youth Congress President to say such things. Why, Priyaranjan Das Munshi criticized many Congress leaders when he was President! It was only because so ‘ much importance was given to us that whatever we said was played up.

Transindia: Mrs. Soni, how were so many people in the top rungs of the Congress lea4ership neutralized by Mrs. Gandhi during the Emergency?

Ambika Soni: ‘I wouldn’t ascribe it only to the Emergency. This process began much before. after the 1969 split. Why didn’t Mr. Brahmananda Reddy, who was Home Minister during the Emergency. speak out? Why didn’t I speak out? This was a phenomenon that had been built up over

||’I wish more of us had had the courage to emulate Chandra Shekhar’s example!’||

the years. And. during the Emergency even we felt not only fearful but also isolated. I couldn’t discuss things frankly with my colleagues on the Youth Congress committee because we were never sure that none of us would go and tattle on each ‘ other! Dissent was frowned upon. One was scared of dissent even among friends! All power ·and patronage became centralized, all decision-making. Some of the

||’feel upset and humiliated when I think back.’||

General Secretaries of the Youth Congress, to prove that they were more loyal than the others, began to take problems to Mrs. Gandhi and to ask her: “Do you approve? ” Then. people began shying away from taking decisions. Lest they be wrong decisions; lest they be decisions that displeased somebody. They began pushing it on to somebody else. There is a President of the Indian National Congress on record. who said publicly that “I’m a rubber stamp. and I’m proud of it!”

Transindia: Are you referring to D. K. Borooah?

Ambika Soni: That is a later edition! I am referring to .an earlier President! Do you understand what it means when such statements percolate down to lower levels? Somebody says this. somebody says that. And if you don’t say it. you get singled out! Who wants to be singled out? There are very few people like Chandra Shekhar. who said “Okay. I am singled out. and here I am!” I feel he should be the ideal for so many of us. I wish more of us had the courage to emulate Chandra Shekhar’s example. But you can count people who rebelled against the Congress on your fingertips!

Transindia: But haven’t you realized these things a little bit too late?

Ambika Soni: I would be dishonest if I said that I didn’t know that there was corruption going on. and that I didn’t know that people were collecting personal wealth in the name of the Party. I feel that the “fear

||’Which youth movement can help youth to go forward if it doesn’t sound a little bit militant?’||

psychosis” did not come in during the Emergency. but was the culmination of a process that had begun long before. For me to analyze all these things before was impossible. because I was totally inspired by Mrs. Gandhi. I believed in her. Honestly.

Transindia: Has your belief been shaken now’!

Ambika Soni: Today I have a doubt. I have a doubt because it’s but human. I suppose. with so much coming out into the open these days. to be not able to disregard it all Many of us had told Mrs. Gandhi about some of the things that were going on during the Emergency. I did tell her whatever, little I knew. And now for her to say she didn’t know. or for her to contradict some of the obvious things everybody knows did happen. I just can’t understand why she’s doing that…

Transindia: How do you explain her trying to make a comeback, then?

Ambika Soni: I think she is trying to make a comeback in sheer undignified haste! We have suffered a major. defeat, and I feel that all of us who were in the limelight in varying degrees ought to stay in the background if we are genuinely interested in the Party. We should allow a new leadership to come forward. But speaking of Mrs. Gandhi. to come back and become so vocal in criticizing some of the wrongs in the present government! Such criticism won’t carry. you know! If. I do something like that. if I criticize some of the wrong things happening today. people will say “Why didn’t Ambika Soni do it with her own Youth Congress?” This is why I say my belief in Mrs. Gandhi is shaken, because from all accounts. people suffered during the Emergency. With so many people saying they were tortured. even if you discount some of it. it’s been pretty bad …

Transindia: Mrs. Soni, you are a Congress M.P. in the Rajya Sabha today. Do you think the Congress Party can ever be revamped?

Ambika Soni: Most certainly it can be. The earlier reluctance to stand up and be counted is slowly fading. In Parliament at least. we are trying to put forward some constructive opposition. Because we had always accused the then Opposition of being destructive. today we have an opportunity for showing them what it is to be constructive. Also, I feel the Party should be revamped because it had become flabby. jellyfish-like. being in power for too long. Corruption and power had bloated it. It had stopped exerting itself.

Transindia: Has the personality cult truly been buried for good?

Ambika Soni: Not yet. But the right of party members at different levels to express themselves is slowly being asserted. Basically. I feel that the Congress Party, if it wants to revive itself. has to admit to the people that we do realize. retrospectively. that we did erode democratic processes. that we did set up extra centers of power, and that we did build· up a personality cult. And we should pledge that we will not commit such mistakes again. I feel this would make a big difference with the Indian people.

Transindia: But this repentance is scarcely evident …

Ambika Soni: This wishy-washy mincing of words is wrong! We should show our humility. we should show our capacity to learn from our mistakes. That is why my faith in Mrs. Gandhi is badly shaken. Why can’t she lead this process? She has – been known to have been pretty ruthless in dispensing with people who are no longer useful to her in the past. Why doesn’t she do it today? Certainly, the Congress Party can benefit from her experience. I’m not for expelling her from the Party. Why should anybody be expelled? All of us were cowards! It’s easy to lump everything on Indira Gandhi and expel her. Till we recognize that we were all cowards, I don’t think we’ll go forward! We were all cowards. we didn’t trust each other! We couldn’t speak to each other like, this! If you went and tattled against me. that would show how loyal you were! It was a rat race!